STAR TREK Sequel - "STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS" (SPOILERS)

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AndyDursin
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Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) Starts Shooting

#31 Post by AndyDursin »

mkaroly wrote:Unless maybe the film has something to do with addressing the Eugenics Wars? If the Enterprise and crew are in an alternate timeline (parallel timeline...whatever) then maybe they're going for that? Maybe travel back in time to engage Khan during the Eugenics Wars...maybe in their timeline Khan lived longer, escaped Ceti Alpha V and conquered Earth.

Just thinking out loud because I would hate to see a ST 2 redux on any level.
Could be Michael, could well be. I'm jumping to conclusions thinking it's going to be the same type of film, but perhaps I'm not giving Abrams enough credit.

Like I said, the first film did a lot of good things IMO and I enjoyed it a great deal...I just hope it's something different and not a mash-up of WRATH OF KHAN the way SUPER 8 was just mix 'n match of different genre films.

Also confimed:

-Leonard Nimoy is coming back (Despite his statements to the contrary when the first one came out)
-The Klingons are involved
-Michael Giacchino will write another forgettable score ;)

Eric W.
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Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) Starts Shooting

#32 Post by Eric W. »

AndyDursin wrote:
Also confimed:

-Leonard Nimoy is coming back (Despite his statements to the contrary when the first one came out)
Bad news unless they send him back home where he belongs and make it where both Star Trek timelines and continuities are fine and completely mututally exclusive of one another.


-The Klingons are involved
Good news.
-Michael Giacchino will write another forgettable score ;)
Yup. More bad news there.

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Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) Starts Shooting

#33 Post by mkaroly »

Good...Klingons are in it. Thumbs up on that one.

At least Hams Zimmer isn't writing the score...I did not buy either release of MG's scores to ST Redux since it didn't really make an impression on me in the movies. We need to find a way to get to an alternate timeline for films and their scores!!!! Lol...

DavidBanner

Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) -Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!

#34 Post by DavidBanner »

I don't believe this is a redo of TWOK since the characters are much younger. Not sure that it's a revenge movie either. But it does look like the same kind of simple action movie as was seen in 2009, and not anything more.

They're saying it's not a straight remake of "Space Seed" but that sounds like the jumping off point - after which they dial in the other elements, like Klingons and more fights and space battles until the rousing finale when they'll discuss Starfleet's lofty ideals.

I still wish they could have gotten a real feature director like Nicholas Meyer to take the reins on this. The fact that it's being directed by Abrams and written by the same gang that did the 2009 film signals this will indeed be more of the same. Lots of flares and handheld shaky cam to try to convince the viewer that this is REALLY URGENT AND EXCITING STUFF. For me, I simply couldn't tell what was happening much of the time.

Agree that the score will be the same kind of wallpaper score they had the last time. Wasn't Rick Berman roundly criticized for using wallpaper scores on the TV shows until he finally got drummed out of there?

The sad thing is that there are several writers, producers and directors out there who really do know Star Trek and could do some interesting things with a movie franchise. David Gerrold, Dorothy Fontana, and many of the others are still around - and yet their material gets grabbed by the guys doing the fan productions which are simply painful to see. If anything, their input as producers here would have been invaluable. But Abrams and company don't want that - they want to write their own version of the whole thing. Roddenberry would have been horrified at all the revisionism happening here. (On the other hand, he also wouldn't have been very happy about how things went under Berman on all the spinoffs in the 90s either...)

I agree that Star Trek is a much broader story than a simple revenge plot. Star Trek TWOK was good for this as a one-off. The revenge plot had a point in the movie, as a counterpoint to the theme of aging that was driving the whole thing. But over the course of the original series, there were plenty of different ideas running that weren't revenge plots at all - episodes like "The Enemy Within", "Where No Man Has Gone Before", "Amok Time" and many others really explored some good concepts and developed the characters. It's quite depressing to see the whole thing dumbed down to this level.

It's also depressing to see them doing yet another 3D post conversion. As Abrams noted in interviews, they are shooting the movie for 2D and then having a digital 3D conversion after the fact.

Sounds like Summer 2013 will be a great opportunity for Star Trek fans - to get a better Blu-ray of TMP and to get more Blu-ray sets of the TNG seasons. Don't believe I'll be making it to the movie theater, though.

Eric W.
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Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) -Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!

#35 Post by Eric W. »

^^ Co-signed.

Nice to see you around David. :)

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Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) -Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!

#36 Post by AndyDursin »

I agree that Star Trek is a much broader story than a simple revenge plot. Star Trek TWOK was good for this as a one-off. The revenge plot had a point in the movie, as a counterpoint to the theme of aging that was driving the whole thing. But over the course of the original series, there were plenty of different ideas running that weren't revenge plots at all - episodes like "The Enemy Within", "Where No Man Has Gone Before", "Amok Time" and many others really explored some good concepts and developed the characters. It's quite depressing to see the whole thing dumbed down to this level.
It's also not anything new -- it's a trend that also started with the TNG films. You had Malcolm McDowell's part in GENERATIONS, then Tom Hardy's role in NEMESIS -- and when they tried to deviate a bit and make a "softer" type of film in INSURRECTION, the grosses went south, and fast. FIRST CONTACT had a "big bad" so to speak in the Borg queen, but at least there they mixed it up with a time-travel story at the same time.

It's a problem because when you make a film now every 2-3-4 years and on a huge budget, I think Paramount is weary of making anything OTHER than a free-standing type of "event" movie that will draw in fans beyond the Trek hardcore. That means, sadly, less of the lower-key type of stories we saw in the original show that you referenced. For me, knowing that, I was quite entertained by the first Abrams movie in terms of it capturing the essence of the original characters -- it wasn't a dark, grungy "reimagining" like the Battlestar Galactica Sci-Fi revamp -- while still working in a fast-paced modern blockbuster environment. I found it far more enjoyable than any of the TNG films, but that's just me (First Contact was the only one that approximated, say, the best films of the original cast).

In general, I think we can agree that -- and I have no problem with -- them pressing the reset button altogether from where Trek was at the end of the Rick Berman era -- viewers were oversaturated with Trek, disinterested in it, and the TNG film series simply never ignited the way the original cast movies did. And Abrams' decision to go with a parallel reality or thereabouts -- frankly I thought it was brilliant myself as a way of "resetting" this continuity and starting over while still mixing in elements of the old. More interesting than a straight remake, but also more respectful than pretending they never happened or doing a "reimagining" in every regard.

My problem is you've got to do more than 1 movie every 4 years, and again, give us something MORE than the same type of film (if indeed we get another revenge type of scenario). They've gone from oversaturating the Trek crowd to taking so long that they've totally lost the momentum the first movie generated (again, we can disagree over the effectiveness of its story, but there is no denying the fact that the film made a ton of money domestically, and far more than most of the prior films ever did). You can't have actors grow into these roles when you're not seeing them on-screen more than 2 hours every 4 years. It's ridiculous.

Abrams is a guy who I think has been behind some terrific projects -- I mean, the first few years of LOST were as captivating as anything I've seen on TV (I won't rehash the last few years lol), and GHOST PROTOCOL is a phenomenally entertaining film (with obvious credit going to Brad Bird who directed it). But I agree David, I think he's more effective as a producer than a director (MI3 wasn't as good as GHOST PROTOCOL, SUPER 8 was just intermittently satisfying, etc.), and his talents as a filmmaker are less than impressive.

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Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) -Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!

#37 Post by mkaroly »

Lol...nice change to the title of the thread! :lol:

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Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) -Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!

#38 Post by AndyDursin »

mkaroly wrote:Lol...nice change to the title of the thread! :lol:
Thanks Michael I felt it was appropriate :)

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Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) -Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!

#39 Post by Monterey Jack »

AndyDursin wrote: It's a problem because when you make a film now every 2-3-4 years and on a huge budget, I think Paramount is weary of making anything OTHER than a free-standing type of "event" movie that will draw in fans beyond the Trek hardcore. That means, sadly, less of the lower-key type of stories we saw in the original show that you referenced.
This is pretty much the case for any big-screen version of a television and/or comic book franchise. When you're cranking out episodes/issues on a weekly/monthly basis, you're allowed room to experiment with more character-based stories in addition to the usual action and adventure, but once 200+ million is on the line, everything has to be "epic" enough to justify that financial risk. Has even one of the Batman movies to date -- from any filmmaker -- really portrayed Bruce Wayne as a detective the way the comics and cartoons have? No, it's always "outlandish Rogue's Gallery villain hatches ploy to destroy Gotham City/the world". Maybe The Dark Knight had more of a personal/street-level feel to it, but even then, you had The Joker planning on introducing citywide mayhem and anarchy. I'd love to see a Batman movie where Batman just faces some garden-variety criminals and gangster types, but no studio would bankroll such a movie...they just keep shuffling through the same handful of recognizable villains instead of doing some of the lesser-known ones who would shake things up a little. What about The Ventriloquist? Clayface? Good versions of Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy? Maybe the next reboot after The Dark Knight Rises can bring back some of the more fanciful/sci-fi bad guys.

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Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) -Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!

#40 Post by AndyDursin »

Monterey Jack wrote:
AndyDursin wrote: It's a problem because when you make a film now every 2-3-4 years and on a huge budget, I think Paramount is weary of making anything OTHER than a free-standing type of "event" movie that will draw in fans beyond the Trek hardcore. That means, sadly, less of the lower-key type of stories we saw in the original show that you referenced.
This is pretty much the case for any big-screen version of a television and/or comic book franchise. When you're cranking out episodes/issues on a weekly/monthly basis, you're allowed room to experiment with more character-based stories in addition to the usual action and adventure, but once 200+ million is on the line, everything has to be "epic" enough to justify that financial risk. Has even one of the Batman movies to date -- from any filmmaker -- really portrayed Bruce Wayne as a detective the way the comics and cartoons have? No, it's always "outlandish Rogue's Gallery villain hatches ploy to destroy Gotham City/the world". Maybe The Dark Knight had more of a personal/street-level feel to it, but even then, you had The Joker planning on introducing citywide mayhem and anarchy. I'd love to see a Batman movie where Batman just faces some garden-variety criminals and gangster types, but no studio would bankroll such a movie...they just keep shuffling through the same handful of recognizable villains instead of doing some of the lesser-known ones who would shake things up a little. What about The Ventriloquist? Clayface? Good versions of Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy? Maybe the next reboot after The Dark Knight Rises can bring back some of the more fanciful/sci-fi bad guys.
Great post MJ, you're right on target there. I think the next step for Batman is a wilder, more fantasy oriented take closer to the Burton films. The "hard edge" and "reality" approach of the Nolan films will be tough for anyone to duplicate, and I think it's high time we took a step back away from that ledge...but I've ranted enough on that topic!! lol. :lol:

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Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) -Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!

#41 Post by Monterey Jack »

AndyDursin wrote:Great post MJ, you're right on target there. I think the next step for Batman is a wilder, more fantasy oriented take closer to the Burton films. The "hard edge" and "reality" approach of the Nolan films will be tough for anyone to duplicate, and I think it's high time we took a step back away from that ledge...but I've ranted enough on that topic!! lol. :lol:
I still really enjoy the Burton films (the unfairly maligned Batman Returns in particular), and I'd love to see another Batman film in that style...I'd like to see a Gotham City that's more than just Chicago with a few cosmetic enhancements, and more fanciful villains than the "realistic" ones Christopher Nolan has stuck with. With today's CGI, a sci-fi/fantasy villain like Clayface, Killer Croc or Mr. Freeze would be a snap. Then again, I think Arnold Schwarzenegger's pun-happy take in Batman & Robin has pretty much tainted Mr. Freeze forever. :( The Victor Fries in Batman: The Animated Series is one of the most tragic villains in the Batman universe, and I'd love to see that version realized on the big screen.

DavidBanner

Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) -Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!

#42 Post by DavidBanner »

A few quick responses. This is interesting.

Re Star Trek Movies:

I really think that the settling down from "Big Concept" or even "Unusual Concept" to "Villain of the Movie and Revenge" happened during and after Star Trek TWOK. It's just that that movie did it better than anything that followed - mostly because they were working from about five different scripts that Nicholas Meyer combined into one uber script. But Trek III TSFS was really just a rehash that brought in the Klingons and allowed them a quick way out. The fourth movie was a kind of a side-step into then-current San Francisco. The fifth movie was a strange pastiche of action and really over-the-top comedy. The sixth was better than 3-5 but was clearly coasting on the best moments of TWOK. Once you get into the TNG movies, things drop a few notches. Generations was a feature length/size TNG episode with Kirk at the edges that had some good action moments but many more terrible ones with Data. First Contact was a better action movie with some interesting visuals but without much depth to it - its big advantage was using the Borg, and its big disappointment was that it didn't know what to do with them. Insurrection tried to combine the action of First Contact with a pastiche of TNG episodes that didn't make a lot of sense. Nemesis actually holds up the best as a movie, and has the most interesting space battle material seen since TWOK, but it also has a lot of creaky material in it. And if we look back at the original "Star Trek The Motion Picture", it's fun to watch now to see the cast only 10 years out from TOS, but it really hasn't aged well. Gene Roddenberry's concepts in it feel like a strange mixture when thrown into the same room as the actors from the original TV show. But it does have more scope than the other 9 films combined.

As for JJ Abrams, his take on his movie made very little sense to me. The directorial style was the usual one for television directors trying to work on the theatrical screen - shake the camera a lot and throw in a few flares and it will all seem URGENT. It's a standard TV trick, but on the big screen, it's just annoying. And the reimagining of how the characters got through the Academy simply doesn't make any sense. Nor does the idea of throwing Kirk off the ship onto a hostile planet. And there are many more strange problems with the movie. But you're absolutely right - the audience bought a lot of tickets for it - just as they had for the first Trek movie back in 1979. Having had a break for a few years definitely helped that situation.

The delay between movies was dictated partly by the 2007 WGA Strike, which caused the delay in releasing the 2009 film - which should have been released 6 months or so earlier. The compounded delay, coupled with JJ Abrams' constant attention to new and different projects, delayed everything about a year from when people expected things to happen. I agree that it's very difficult to pay much attention to a storyline that stops and starts with a four year gap. I have an equal issue with the new Bond movie coming 4 years after the last one. But in both cases, I understand there were real world problems in the way of a new movie. The Star Trek movie could only be done when Abrams was available - since he made clear that he wanted to be the one to direct it. Had he given the reins to a more experienced feature director/writer, like Nicholas Meyer, the movie could have been out in 2011. And in the case of the Bond movie, there was the issue of MGM/UA's bankruptcy fouling everything up.

I agree that the variety of episodes focusing on different characters really gets sacrificed when you're only doing one movie every few years and it must be an event. And the same thing applies to the Batman stories. When there's a new comic every month or a new episode every week (12 comics a year, 22 episodes a year), you have time to really develop the characters and tell many small stories in the midst of the big ones. Of course, it's the big stories that always get the most attention. And when they get into making motion pictures, they always want to do the big epic stories.

BTW we should keep in mind that JJ Abrams was only involved in LOST in a meaningful way at the beginning of the series. When he was still editing the pilot episode, Damon Lindelof has disclosed that he was already starting to prep Mission Impossible III. He then contributed some writing and then moved on to other ideas, including the failed pilot "The Catch". It is true that he did jump back into LOST for a minute after MI III fizzled in theaters, helping to write the season 3 opener and promising to write and direct more for the show. And then he disappeared again, putting more time into other ideas and the Star Trek movie. He was eventually asked to stop sending in notes from afar, as he was no longer on the same page as the guys actually producing LOST. Many of us were hoping that he would return to write and direct the series finale, but such did not happen.

I'm trying to keep an open mind on the new Trek movie, but I'm at least consoled by the fact that it will make it possible for Paramount to issue a proper Blu-ray of TMP, and that we may see some other interesting Blu releases tied into it. The new conversion of TNG to Blu-ray is an interesting and welcome surprise.

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Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) -Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!

#43 Post by AndyDursin »

I agree that it's very difficult to pay much attention to a storyline that stops and starts with a four year gap. I have an equal issue with the new Bond movie coming 4 years after the last one. But in both cases, I understand there were real world problems in the way of a new movie. The Star Trek movie could only be done when Abrams was available - since he made clear that he wanted to be the one to direct it. Had he given the reins to a more experienced feature director/writer, like Nicholas Meyer, the movie could have been out in 2011. And in the case of the Bond movie, there was the issue of MGM/UA's bankruptcy fouling everything up.
I draw a distinction there because of where these franchises are at -- and it's a big difference. Even if it's 4 years, Bond is still a known commodity. That series taking a break for a few years is no big deal really -- it's not like there aren't over 20 earlier films there to fall back on, and there were a few gaps there (3 years between Golden Gun and Spy, several more between License and Goldeneye) in the series previously. Not to mention, all the Bond films had been self-contained before the Craig movies. I understand this is supposed to be some kind of "trilogy" or something but that was one of my big issues with Quantum of Solace -- that what was supposed to have been a progression of the Bond character at the end of Casino Royale (look, he's Bond now!) was kind of negated with that terrible film. (Well, at least I didn't care for it!). Had it been 4 years between Casino and Quantum -- that's one thing. But Craig already has two Bond films under his belt already, so it's a different deal than the new Star Trek.

With this Star Trek cast, it's basically a whole new series, a whole new cast, a whole new "universe" in terms of continuity -- but we've only seen one 2-hour Abrams movie. There isn't any supporting TV series, nothing else there, and no chance for the actors to establish themselves in these roles which I think is key for this series to have any lasting impact. Every prior Trek cast had the chance to star in dozens of shows over multiple years before making the leap to features. This is basically a "movie only" cast -- and they're never going to have the opportunity to become attached to these roles when you churn out a sequel FOUR YEARS later.

That to me is unforgivable, and it's inexcusable. Abrams and his writers should've had a plan in place to get the series going, in multiple installments, over a set amount of time. That he's been preoccupied or what not -- that's his short sightedness (and Paramount's), and I believe it will really hurt whatever chances they had at establishing a long-term franchise here. Certainly it's not nearly satisfying the appetite for Trekkies, which had a lot of momentum going for it after the last one did so well commercially at least here in the U.S. (None of the Trek movies has done anything in foreign dollars, ever).

Bond will be fine IF the film is good enough -- but I think even if Abrams makes a solid "ST II", that the possibility is there already that permanent damage has already been done by the gap between the two films.

The rest of your post I totally agree with David, though I'm not nearly as fond of Nemesis as you are. :)

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Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) -Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!

#44 Post by John Johnson »

London. Greatest City in the world.

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Re: STAR TREK 2 (2013) -Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!

#45 Post by AndyDursin »

Sure makes more sense than him playing Khan!

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